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Re: lNCSR KH VEPMShE DShPSh ON'BHREYa' MYu YaBER?
21.09.2006 11:09 | K. Ya. Ropotenko
' OPEDKYuCYuCh BYaEL GYuHMREPEYaNBYuMMShL BG'RE B PS'H 'MHCS mNBH'NBYu H tPNKNBYu tHGH'Yu VEPMShU DShP H PYuYa'PShRE MYu YaRP. 100.
pYuYaYaLNRPHL DHYuCPYuLLS shDDHMCRNMYutHM'EKE'REIMYu CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNCN 'NKKYuOYaYu (' YaNFYuKEMHCh, ' ME YaLNC MYuIRH/YaNGDYuRE 'YuPRHM'S. yuBRNPSh http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609024.pdf B YaBNEL YuMYuKHGE HYaONKEGNBYuKH DHYuCPYuLLS oEMPNSGYu, VRN ME RYu' MYuCK'DMN).
yaNCKYuYaMN YuBRNPYuL 'MHCH VEPMYu' DShPYu BNGMH'YuER ME B LNLEMR BPELEMH t1, 'NCDYu 'NKKYuOYaHPSChYEE REKN YaFHLYuERYa' DN PYuGLEPYu, PYuBMNCN EE CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNLS PYuDHSYaS, Yu PYuME'E - B LNLEMR t0. cNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI NAPYuGSChR YaHCMYuKSh, HDSYHE YaN Ya'NPNYaRECh YaBERYu H BSh'ED'HE HG ZhEMRPYu REKYu 'Yu' PYuG B RYu'NI LNLEMR t0, VRN DNYaRHCYuChR ONBEPUMNYaRH REKYu, 'NCDYu NMN YaFHLYuERYa' DN CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNCN PYuDHSYaYu.
oSYaRE REOEPE B LNLEMR BPELEMH LEFDS t0 Ht1 REKN BGNPBERYa' (HKH HYaOYuPHRYa' 'Yu' YaTEPHVEYa'Yu' DNLEMMYu' YaREM'Yu) H ECN BEYEYaRBN PYuGKERYuERYa' B AEYa'NMEVMNYaRE. b ShRNI YaHRSYuZhHH CNBNPHRE N YaSYEYaRBNBYuMHH VEPMNI DShPSh B OEPHND NRt0 DN BGPShBYu MEBEPMN, ONYa'NKE'S CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI ME NAPYuGSERYa'.
s'YuGYuMMYu' BNGLNFMNYaRE EYaRE YaKEDYaRHE NAYECN YaBNIYaRBYu nrn, YaNCKYuYaMN 'NRNPNLS MYu MYuYaRN'YEE BKH'ER ME RNKE'N OPN'KNE, MN H ASDSYEE. b THGH'E VEPMShU DShP CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI NOPEDEK'ERYa' ME RNKE'N NYaNAEMMNYaR'LH OPNYaRPYuMYaRBYu-BPELEMH B DYuMMShI LNLEMR, MN H BYaEI ASDSYEI HYaRNPHEI (SOYuDER KH 'Yu'NE RN-REKN B VEPMSCh DShPS HKH MER). gYuDYuVYu MYuUNFDEMH' CNPHGNMRYu YaNAShRHI EYaRE GYuDYuVYu Ya 'NMEVMShLH, Yu ME Ya MYuVYuKEMShLH SYaKNBH'LH. dK' RNCN VRNASh ONDVEP'MSRE ShRN YaBNIYaRBN ECN MYuGShBYuChR "REKENKNCHVEYa'NI" OPHPNDNI CNPHGNMRYu YaNAShRHI, B OPNRHBNONKNFMNYaRE OPHVHMMNI OPHPNDE NAShVMShU DHMYuLHVEYa'HU YaHYaREL
rYu'HL NAPYuGNL, YaKSVYuI, PYuGNAPYuMMShI B http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609024.pdf, ON-LNELS LMEMHCh, EYaRE DNBNKEMN NAYHI H LNDEKEMN-MEGYuBHYaHLShI: KChANE REKN, BGNPBYuB'EEYa'/HYaOYuPHB'EEYa' DN LNLEMRYu t1 ME NAPYuGSER VEPMSCh DShPS H CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI. iPNLE RNCN, ShRNR YaKSVYuI ME NAKYuDYuER OPHMZhHOHYuKEMNI MNBHGMNI H B NAYEL BHDE SFE NOHYaYuM B KHREPYuRSPE.
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- Mogut li chernye dyry poyavit'sya na svet?
(S. B. Popov/GAISh, Moskva,
12.09.2006 10:10, 7.5 KBait, otvetov: 3)
V nachale 21 veka chernye dyry kazhutsya privychnymi. Nikto ne udivlyaetsya, uvidev, skazhem, v novostyah syuzhet o nablyudeniyah odnoi iz nih s pomosh'yu priborov kakoi-nibud' rentgenovskoi kosmicheskoi observatorii. Uchenye aktivno obsuzhdayut raznye aspekty, svyazannye s etimi udivitel'nymi ob'ektami. Kto-to zhdet, kogda gravitacionnye antenny zafiksiruyut sliyaniya chernyh dyr. Kto-to proyavlyaet bespokoistvo po povodu planiruemyh uskoritel'nyh eksperimentov, v kotoryh mogut obrazovyvat'sya (i tut zhe isparyat'sya) kroshechnye chernye dyrochki. Kto-to rasschityvaet spektry mass chernyh dyr, obrazuyushihsya pri kollapse zvezd. Kto-to modeliruet evolyuciyu chernyh dyr v tesnyh dvoinyh sistemah. Kto-to rassmatrivaet vopros o tom, kak naiti blizkie molodye chernye dyry... Termin prizhilsya. Redaktory ne trebuyut ot avtorov kak-to dopolnitel'no ego poyasnyat' (sovsem ne to s kvarkovymi zvezdami ili eshe s kakoi-nibud' ekzotikoi). Odnako v fizike chernyh dyr est' nemalo belyh pyaten.
Horosho izvestno, chto, esli vy brosite v chernuyu dyru fonarik s ochen' "dolgoigrayushei" batareikoi, to vy nikogda ne uvidite, kak fonarik sovsem ischeznet iz vidu (predpolagaetsya, chto u vas est' ideal'no chuvstvitel'naya apparatura). Vam budet kazat'sya, chto fonarik padaet vse medlennee i medlennee. Svet ot nego budet vse krasnee i krasnee (potom, vse "radiee i radiee", t.k. vy budete registrirovat' uzhe kraine nizkochastotnoe radioizluchenie). T.o., s tochki zreniya vneshnego nablyudatelya fonarik nikogda ne peresechet gorizont. Tochno takzhe mozhno govorit' o tom, chto s tochki zreniya takogo nablyudatelya kollaps zvezdy, kotoryi dolzhen byl by privesti k formirovaniyu chernoi dyry, ibo nikakie sily uzhe ne mogut uderzhivat' veshestvo, nikogda ne zakonchitsya. Drugoe delo, chto pri etom vsegda prigovarivayutsya takie slova: "Esli nablyudatel' budet padat' vmeste s veshestvom, to vse budet po inomu: on taki popadet vnutr' vzapravdashnei chernoi dyry". My tozhe prigovarivali takie slova, ibo oni yavlyayutsya standartnym rezul'tatom. My dazhe pridumali prekrasnuyu illyustraciyu kollapsiruyushego oblaka, sostoyashego iz chasov. Vneshnii nablyudatel' vsegda budet videt' chasy v samom centre oblaka, no strelki na nih prakticheski zamrut.... Odnako "standartnost'" v takom voprose eshe ne oznachaet "okonchatel'nost'". S chernymi dyrami svyazano nemalo voprosov. Kak oni obrazuyutsya? Isparyayutsya li oni do konca? Chto proishodit s veshestvom, padayushim v nih? Chto proishodit s informaciei? Est' mnogo teorii, no yasno, chto do okonchatel'nogo otveta poka daleko. Nizhe ya postarayus' kratko opisat' sut' nedavno poyavivsheisya raboty "Observations of incipient black holes and the information loss problem", napisannoi uchenymi iz Case Western Reserve University (USA). Ona poyavilas' v Arhive v nachale sentyabrya 2006 g.: gr-qc/0609024. Sredi avtorov takoi izvestnyi chelovek kak Lourens Krauss (Lawrence Krauss).
Prezhde chem pereiti k suti rezul'tatov stat'i zamechu, chto ya -astrofizik, a ne specialist v fizike chernyh dyr ili v blizkih oblastyah teoreticheskoi fiziki. Nadeyus', chto kommentarii ot specialistov ne zastavyat sebya zhdat'. Po vsei vidimosti stat'ya stanet predmetom obsuzhdeniya na neskol'kih moskovskih seminarah (v chastnosti, seminara im. Zel'manova v GAISh MGU). Dlya teh, kto hochet pered tem, kak dvigat'sya dal'she, posmotret' obshuyu informaciyu o chernyh dyrah na russkom yazyke, rekomenduyu stat'yu iz "Fiziki kosmosa".
V stat'e rassmatrivaet kollaps sfericheski simmetrichnoi domennoi stenki. Avtory privodyat neskol'ko vazhnyh rezul'tatov. Pervyi iz nih ne soderzhit sensacionnosti. On lish' podtverzhdaet, chto i v sluchae kvantovogo rassmotreniya vneshnii nablyudatel' nikogda ne dozhdetsya momenta kollapsa. Eto oznachaet, chto, skazhem, fiziki v CERNe, izuchayushie stolknoveniya chastic s obrazovaniem chernyh dyr, ne smogut otvetit' na vopros "kogda po ih chasam obrazovalas' chernaya dyra". Poetomu ostavim etot rezul'tat i pereidem k bolee udivitel'nym.
Smotrite. My govorim, chto s tochki zreniya vneshnego nablyudatelya gorizont nikogda ne obrazuetsya. Tem ne menee nablyudatel' dolzhen videt' houkingovskoe izluchenie. T.e., s tochki zreniya vneshnego nablyudatelya dazhe v standartnoi kartine proishodit dovol'no interesnaya vesh': chernaya dyra isparyaetsya dazhe ne obrazovavshis'! Sushestvenno bolee detal'noe rassmotrenie privelo avtorov stat'i k interesnomu zaklyucheniyu: domennaya stenka polnost'yu isparyaetsya do obrazovaniya gorizonta. Bolee togo, soputstvuyushii nablyudatel' (padayushii vmeste so stenkoi, no nemnogo otstayushii ot nee) ne peresechet nikakogo gorizonta, ibo ego prosto net! Vse, chto on uvidit, eto yarkaya vspyshka, sootvetstvuyushaya polnomu ispareniyu domennoi stenki.
Etot rezul'tat imeet interesnoe sledstvie v smysle estestvennogo razresheniya t.n. informacionnogo paradoksa. Koli gorizont ne obrazuetsya, to nikakoi poteri informacii i net! Drugoe delo, esli chernaya dyra sushestvovala iznachal'no. Takoe, v principe, vozmozhno. Eto sluchai t.n. pervichnyh chernyh dyr. Veroyatno, pishut avtory, est' raznica mezhdu vselennymi, v kotoryh iznachal'no chernye dyry (t.e. gorizonty) est', i temi, v kotoryh oni otsutstvuyut.
Vazhnym vyvodom stat'i yavlyaetsya to, chto uskoritel'nye eksperimenty ne mogut privesti k poyavleniyu "nastoyashih chernyh dyr", t.e. ni v kakoi sisteme otscheta gorizont v takom eksperimente ne obrazuetsya. Drugoi vazhnyi vyvod sostoit v tom, chto izluchenie chernyh dyr ne budet imet' tochno chernotel'nyi spektr. V principe, eto ne novost', i v raschetah uskoritel'nyh eksperimentov eto uzhe bylo otmecheno. Tem ne menee, rezul'tat ochen' vazhen, poskol'ku poluchen dlya dostatochno obshego sluchaya.
Razumeetsya, rezul'taty polucheny v ramkah opredelennyh predpolozhenii i uproshenii. Avtory kratko obsuzhdayut ih v konce stat'i, no ya, ne buduchi specialistom, vozderzhus' ot kommentariev po etomu povodu. Kratkie kommentarii specialistov svodyatsya k tomu, chto rol' predpolozhenii mozhet byt' ochen' velika.
Avtory, razumeetsya, obsuzhdayut, kak ih rezul'taty mogut byt' provereny. Krome astronomicheskih dannyh i uskoritel'nyh eksperimentov, oni obrashayutsya k modelirovaniyu chernyh dyr v fizike kondensirovannyh sred. Ne uveren, chto takie analogii mogut dat' okonchatel'noe podtverzhdenie (ili oproverzhenie), tem ne menee, eto takzhe ochen' interesno. Budem zhdat' razvitiya sobytii.
Ya blagodaryu K.A. Postnova za ukazanie na stat'yu i obsuzhdenie i S.O. Alekseeva za kommentarii k tekstu.
- >> Re: lNCSR KH VEPMShE DShPSh ON'BHREYa' MYu YaBER?
(K. Ya. Ropotenko,
21.09.2006 11:09, 2.2 KBait)
' OPEDKYuCYuCh BYaEL GYuHMREPEYaNBYuMMShL BG'RE B PS'H 'MHCS mNBH'NBYu H tPNKNBYu tHGH'Yu VEPMShU DShP H PYuYa'PShRE MYu YaRP. 100.
pYuYaYaLNRPHL DHYuCPYuLLS shDDHMCRNMYutHM'EKE'REIMYu CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNCN 'NKKYuOYaYu (' YaNFYuKEMHCh, ' ME YaLNC MYuIRH/YaNGDYuRE 'YuPRHM'S. yuBRNPSh http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609024.pdf B YaBNEL YuMYuKHGE HYaONKEGNBYuKH DHYuCPYuLLS oEMPNSGYu, VRN ME RYu' MYuCK'DMN).
yaNCKYuYaMN YuBRNPYuL 'MHCH VEPMYu' DShPYu BNGMH'YuER ME B LNLEMR BPELEMH t1, 'NCDYu 'NKKYuOYaHPSChYEE REKN YaFHLYuERYa' DN PYuGLEPYu, PYuBMNCN EE CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNLS PYuDHSYaS, Yu PYuME'E - B LNLEMR t0. cNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI NAPYuGSChR YaHCMYuKSh, HDSYHE YaN Ya'NPNYaRECh YaBERYu H BSh'ED'HE HG ZhEMRPYu REKYu 'Yu' PYuG B RYu'NI LNLEMR t0, VRN DNYaRHCYuChR ONBEPUMNYaRH REKYu, 'NCDYu NMN YaFHLYuERYa' DN CPYuBHRYuZhHNMMNCN PYuDHSYaYu.
oSYaRE REOEPE B LNLEMR BPELEMH LEFDS t0 Ht1 REKN BGNPBERYa' (HKH HYaOYuPHRYa' 'Yu' YaTEPHVEYa'Yu' DNLEMMYu' YaREM'Yu) H ECN BEYEYaRBN PYuGKERYuERYa' B AEYa'NMEVMNYaRE. b ShRNI YaHRSYuZhHH CNBNPHRE N YaSYEYaRBNBYuMHH VEPMNI DShPSh B OEPHND NRt0 DN BGPShBYu MEBEPMN, ONYa'NKE'S CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI ME NAPYuGSERYa'.
s'YuGYuMMYu' BNGLNFMNYaRE EYaRE YaKEDYaRHE NAYECN YaBNIYaRBYu nrn, YaNCKYuYaMN 'NRNPNLS MYu MYuYaRN'YEE BKH'ER ME RNKE'N OPN'KNE, MN H ASDSYEE. b THGH'E VEPMShU DShP CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI NOPEDEK'ERYa' ME RNKE'N NYaNAEMMNYaR'LH OPNYaRPYuMYaRBYu-BPELEMH B DYuMMShI LNLEMR, MN H BYaEI ASDSYEI HYaRNPHEI (SOYuDER KH 'Yu'NE RN-REKN B VEPMSCh DShPS HKH MER). gYuDYuVYu MYuUNFDEMH' CNPHGNMRYu YaNAShRHI EYaRE GYuDYuVYu Ya 'NMEVMShLH, Yu ME Ya MYuVYuKEMShLH SYaKNBH'LH. dK' RNCN VRNASh ONDVEP'MSRE ShRN YaBNIYaRBN ECN MYuGShBYuChR "REKENKNCHVEYa'NI" OPHPNDNI CNPHGNMRYu YaNAShRHI, B OPNRHBNONKNFMNYaRE OPHVHMMNI OPHPNDE NAShVMShU DHMYuLHVEYa'HU YaHYaREL
rYu'HL NAPYuGNL, YaKSVYuI, PYuGNAPYuMMShI B http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609024.pdf, ON-LNELS LMEMHCh, EYaRE DNBNKEMN NAYHI H LNDEKEMN-MEGYuBHYaHLShI: KChANE REKN, BGNPBYuB'EEYa'/HYaOYuPHB'EEYa' DN LNLEMRYu t1 ME NAPYuGSER VEPMSCh DShPS H CNPHGNMR YaNAShRHI. iPNLE RNCN, ShRNR YaKSVYuI ME NAKYuDYuER OPHMZhHOHYuKEMNI MNBHGMNI H B NAYEL BHDE SFE NOHYaYuM B KHREPYuRSPE.
- Re: Mogut li chernye dyry poyavit'sya na svet?
(A. V. Rykov,
5.10.2006 11:15, 1.4 KBait, otvetov: 1)
Prinoshu svoi izvineniya Sergeyu Borisovichu Popovu. On "na duhu" ne perenosit Anatoliya Rykova. Veroyatno za to, chto u poslednego neskol'ko drugaya tochka zreniya na ustovshiesya "fakty" fiziki i astrofiziki.
Postarayus' Sergeya Popova "ne podstavlyat'" Problema pokrasneniya fonarika po mere prodvizheniya k "gorizontu sobytii" chernoi dyry. Vse verno - krasnoe smeshenie po mere priblizheniya k chernoi dyre real'no. No ono imeet "dvulikuyu" intepretaciyu, kotoraya proistekaet iz formuly dlya dliny volny, skorosti sveta i chastoty izlucheniya v istochnike:
L=c/f.
Yasno, chto pri postulate c=const v krasnom smeshenii obyazana umen'shat'sya chastota izlucheniya (fanarika). A eto sootvetstvuet zamedleniyu vremeni. Vse v sootvetsvii s GR.
Est' drugaya al'ternativa - skorost' sveta umen'shaetsya po mere priblizheniya k chernoi dyre, k istochniku sil'noi gravitacii. A fonarik kak byl neizmennym istochnikom chastoty f, tak im i ostalsya. S kakih takih prichin dolzhna izmenit'sya "fiziologiya" batareiki i lampy nakalivaniya? Poetomu real'naya al'ternativa sostoit v zavisimosti skorosti sveta ot gravitacii. Eto sovershenno novaya intepretaciya v astrofiziki, vlekushaya za soboi peresmotr mnogih yavlenii kosmosa. I vozvrat k principu Gyuigensa otnositel'no prelomleniya sveta:
n=c/c(i) .
Sergei Borisovich! Proshu u Vas izveneniya za vtorzhenie v Vashu sferu interesov.
Anatolii Rykov
- Re[2]: Mogut li chernye dyry poyavit'sya na svet?
(A. V. Rykov,
5.10.2006 11:22, 1.6 KBait)
Ispravlenie grammatiki:
Prinoshu svoi izvineniya Sergeyu Borisovichu Popovu. On "na duhu" ne perenosit Anatoliya Rykova. Veroyatno za to, chto u poslednego neskol'ko drugaya tochka zreniya na ustoyavshiesya "fakty" fiziki i astrofiziki.
Postarayus' Sergeya Popova "ne podstavlyat'". Problema pokrasneniya izlucheniya fonarika po mere prodvizheniya k "gorizontu sobytii" chernoi dyry. Vse verno - "krasnoe smeshenie" po mere priblizheniya k "chernoi dyre" real'no. No ono imeet "dvulikuyu" interpretaciyu, kotoraya proistekaet iz formuly dlya dliny volny, skorosti sveta i chastoty izlucheniya v istochnike:
L=c/f.
Yasno, chto pri postulate c=const v "krasnom smeshenii" obyazana umen'shat'sya chastota izlucheniya f (fanarika). A eto sootvetstvuet zamedleniyu vremeni. Vse v sootvetsvii s GR.
Est' drugaya al'ternativa - skorost' sveta umen'shaetsya po mere priblizheniya k chernoi dyre, k istochniku sil'noi gravitacii. A fonarik kak byl neizmennym istochnikom chastoty f, tak im i ostalsya. S kakih takih prichin dolzhna izmenit'sya "fiziologiya" batareiki i lampy nakalivaniya? Poetomu real'naya al'ternativa sostoit v zavisimosti skorosti sveta ot gravitacii. Eto sovershenno novaya intepretaciya v astrofiziki, vlekushaya za soboi peresmotr mnogih yavlenii kosmosa. I vozvrat k principu Gyuigensa otnositel'no prelomleniya sveta:
n=c/c(i) .
Sergei Borisovich! Proshu u Vas izveneniya za vtorzhenie v Vashu sferu interesov.
Anatolii Rykov