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scientific.ru · 19.06.1995 23:03

"Habbl" - eto teleskop-reflektor (vposledstvii budem upotreblyat' ego imya bez kavychek) s zerkalom diametrom 2.4 m. - po zemnym ponyatiyam nemalen'kii, no na zemle uzhe est' teleskopy s zerkalami diametrom do 10 m (naprimer, Keck1 i Keck2). Im, tem ne menee daleko do Habbla.
>> Prochitat' stat'yu

Dmitrii Docenko · 11.08.2007 23:08

> zerkalo <...> stalo ne 240 sm, a skazhem 40 sm diametrom. <...> U zerkala pri etom umen'shilas' effektivnaya ploshad'. Pri etom sohranilos' <...> uglovoe razreshenie (t.k. krivizna zerkala ne izmenilas').

Ya uzhe pisal vyshe. Ne vydavaite zhelaemoe za deistvitel'noe.

Kak sleduet iz, po-vidimomu, neizvestnoi vam teorii difrakcii, uglovoe razreshenie menyaetsya, poskol'ku izobrazhenie, proizvodimoe ideal'noi linzoi v fokal'noi ploskosti, yavlyaetsya Fur'e-preobrazovaniem vhodnogo otverstiya (v dannom sluchae, formy zerkala). Uglovoe razreshenie ne zavisit ot fokusnogo rasstoyaniya.

> Interesno, kakie mogut byt' dokazatel'stva, chto Habbl eto Habbl, a ne kombinaciya iz "malen'kogo" sputnika i "bol'shogo" vozdushnogo shara (ili samoleta)?

Ya uzhe pisal, poetomu vynuzhden povtorit'sya. Vysokoe uglovoe razreshenie; PSF v UF i vidimyh diapazonah; kolichestvo kosmicheskih luchei na matrice; shum, razmery, chuvstvitel'nost', vzaimnoe polozhenie detektorov; razmer pikselei, ...

Vy pisali, chto eto vam "vse ponyatno", no iz nashei diskussii u menya v etom postepenno zakradyvaetsya somnenie. Nadeyus', vy ponimaete, chto PSF - ochen' ser'eznyi argument.

R. G. Chertanov · 12.08.2007 5:22

Soglashus', Vy pravy, pri malen'kom zerkale umen'shaetsya uglovoe razreshenie (ya sputal s drugoi harakteristikoi). No naprimer na etom snimke Yupitera v vidimyh i UF-luchah rezko razlichaetsya kachestvo. http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/1994/31/image/a/format/web_print/ A tochno li u etih snimkov odinakovoe, kak Vy pishete, uglovoe razreshenie? >""Nepoladka", tochnee, prisutstvie korrektiruyushego fil'tra, proyavlyaetsya v umen'shenii effektivnoi ploshadi, a ne uhudshenii uglovogo razresheniya". Mozhet tam i effektivnaya ploshad', i uglovoe razreshenie imenno dlya UF-diapazona sootvetstvuyut zerkalu men'shemu, chem zayavleno? Inache by ne bylo takoi zhutkoi zernistosti na vtorom snimke, ne tak li. Da i kstati ne dolzhen li ul'trafiolet uluchshit' eto samoe uglovoe razreshenie (chem koroche dlina volny, tem ved' luchshe razreshenie). A na snimkah my vidim naoborot rezkoe uhudshenie pri yakoby tom zhe zerkale. Soglasites', chto zdes' yavno chto-to ne tak. Versiya pro ustanovlennyi astronavtami korrektiruyushii fil'tr, kotoryi im tam vse uhudshil, konechno, interesnaya, no ona trebuet bolee podrobnyh svedenii, a ih-to kak raz i net. Chto soboi predstavlyaet eta shtuka, pochemu ona uhudshila imenno UF-diapazon - my ved' ne znaem. Ili u Vas est' polnaya yasnost' na etot schet? Kstati predstav'te proceduru ustanovki korrektiruyushego fil'tra - eto zhe sverhtochnyi pribor, a u kosmonavta perchatki edva gnutsya. Oni ne sumeli sdelat' shtatno, pol'zuyas' vsemi priborami, na Zemle, no yakoby u nih vse poluchilos' v kosmose. Da i esli neudacha postigla s odnim habblom, pochemu ne zapustili vtoroi, ispravnyi (ved' rashody na NIOKR, kotorye s'edayut l'vinuyu dolyu sredstv, uzhe byli poneseny). Ne inache kak zdes' chto-to ne tak: odna otmazka NASA gromozditsya na druguyu, i v itoge my imeem te zhe snimki, kotorye sdelal by i vozdushnyi shar BLAST... Naschet vozmozhnosti poddelki PSF - na fone takogo uhudsheniya snimka lyubaya komp'yuternaya obrabotka vneset, mne kazhetsya, ne slishkom zametnye iskazheniya. Da i pikselyam yarkost' podkorrektirovat' po snyatym eshe na zemle harakteristikam - po-moemu eto neslozhno.

Dmitrii Docenko · 12.08.2007 16:44

Mne prosto nadoelo vas ubezhdat' Smile

Otvechu na vashi voprosy.

> A tochno li u etih snimkov odinakovoe <...> uglovoe razreshenie? <...> uglovoe razreshenie imenno dlya UF-diapazona sootvetstvuyut zerkalu men'shemu, chem zayavleno. Inache by ne bylo takoi zhutkoi zernistosti na vtorom snimke, ne tak li.

Nu, v kommentariyah k etomu snimku napisano "The grainy appearance of Jupiter in the FUV is due to the darkness of the planet at this wavelength." Ya tak i dumal, no ved' vas eto ne ubedit, da? Wink

Razreshenie v etom sluchae nuzhno smotret' po yarchaishim uchastkam snimka, v dannom sluchae eto polyarnoe siyanie. Ya by skazal, chto razreshenie UF ne huzhe, chem vidimogo snimka.

> Chto soboi predstavlyaet eta shtuka, pochemu ona uhudshila imenno UF-diapazon - my ved' ne znaem. Ili u Vas est' polnaya yasnost' na etot schet?

Ideya v tom, chto material fil'tra pochti ne propuskaet dalekii UF. Koefficient propuskaniya tam ne vyshe 10%. Poetomu effektivnost' padaet na poryadok, a difrakcionnoe razmytie izobrazheniya ne menyaetsya. Pochemu imenno UF - eto yasno iz obshei teorii vzaimodeistviya sveta s dielektrikami (UF nahoditsya v hvoste polosy poglosheniya).

> Oni ne sumeli sdelat' shtatno, pol'zuyas' vsemi priborami, na Zemle, no yakoby u nih vse poluchilos' v kosmose.

Neobhodimost' ustanovki fil'tra stala yasna posle zapuska teleskopa, poskol'ku pri zapuske byla sdvinuta opticheskaya sistema (ne znayu tochno, mozhet, osnovnoe zerkalo pognulos' ili chto-nibud' eshe).

> Da i esli neudacha postigla s odnim habblom, pochemu ne zapustili vtoroi, ispravnyi

Ne znayu. Zaderzhka sostavila by kak minimum 2-3 goda, no eto ne tak mnogo. Mozhet, eto kak raz byl politicheskii vopros. No, chestno govorya, ne znayu.

> Naschet vozmozhnosti poddelki PSF - na fone takogo uhudsheniya snimka lyubaya komp'yuternaya obrabotka vneset, mne kazhetsya, ne slishkom zametnye iskazheniya.

Eto naivno. Very Happy

Pozvolyu sebe predpolozhit', chto vy ne rabotali s Habblovskimi dannymi.

R. G. Chertanov · 13.08.2007 14:11

>v dannom sluchae eto polyarnoe siyanie

Izvestno, chto snimki s Habbla podvergayutsya podmeshivaniyu sluchainogo shuma i komp'yuternoi obrabotke - poetomu tam koe-chto i mozhet vyglyadet' s bolee vysokim razresheniem, chem est' na samom dele.

http://naturalist.rarib.ru/habbl.htm
"Primenyaya sochetanie raznoi tehniki obrabotki izobrazhenii (podmeshivanie psevdosluchainogo shuma, vydelenie podvyborki, obratnogo preobrazovaniya) (dithering, subsampling and deconvolution), astronomy sozdali odno iz naibolee chetkih izobrazhenii udalennogo ob'ekta, kotoroe kogda-libo delalos' kosmicheskim teleskopomHabbla. Na poluchennoi kartinke vidny udivitel'nye podrobnosti"

>ne znayu tochno, mozhet, osnovnoe zerkalo pognulos' ili chto-nibud' eshe

Vikipediya pishet, chto tam oshibsya stre... to est', tehnik.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleskop_Habbl

Komissiya, vozglavlyaemaya Lyu Allenom (angl. Lew Allen), direktorom Laboratorii reaktivnogo dvizheniya ustanovila, chto defekt voznik v rezul'tate oshibki pri montazhe glavnogo nul'korrektora, polevaya linza kotorogo byla sdvinuta na 1,3mm otnositel'no pravil'nogo polozheniya. Sdvig proizoshel po vine tehnika, osushestvlyavshego sborku pribora. On oshibsya pri rabote s lazernym izmeritelem, primenyavshimsya dlya tochnogo razmesheniya opticheskih elementov pribora, a kogda posle okonchaniya montazha zametil nepredvidennyi zazor mezhdu linzoi i podderzhivayushei ee konstrukciei, to prosto vstavil obychnuyu metallicheskuyu shaibu^[11].

Kakaya zhalost'.

>Ne znayu. Zaderzhka sostavila by kak minimum 2-3 goda, no eto ne tak mnogo. Mozhet, eto kak raz byl politicheskii vopros.

Vot ya tozhe teryayus' v dogadkah: kakaya tut mozhet byt' politika, trubit' pro nepoladki edinstvennogo teleskopa, no dazhe ne popytat'sya zapustit' ego "blizneca" (a ved' tehnologiya otrabotana, i ih mozhno bylo by kak Vikingi shtampovat').
A esli by nepoladka okazalas' kriticheskoi (popadanie meteorita i t.p.)? Vse 17 let oni vprochem izbegayut popadat' v Habbl (v otlichie naprimer ot kompleksov Mir/MKS, kotorye imi probity kak resheto).

>Eto naivno. Very Happy

Pozvolyu sebe predpolozhit', chto vy ne rabotali s Habblovskimi dannymi.

Ya ne rabotal, no vopros tak skazat' ochen' vazhnyi. Esli iz kosmosa postupayut UF-snimki s poddel'noi PSF (Vy zhe sami pisali, chto eto vozmozhno pri uhudshenii kachestva, chto my i vidim na UF snimkah), to eto pozhalui nikak nel'zya raspoznat' (ne na chto operet'sya v sravnenii, t.k. net snimkov s kontrol'nogo kachestvennogo teleskopa). Hochetsya nadeyat'sya, chto u Rossii zapustit' takoi teleskop poluchitsya, tam ne budet "sluchaino 10-kratno isporcheno" izobrazhenie imenno v UF-diapazone i t.p...

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